[CONTINUED
FROM PAGE 362]
Your Honor. - I believe he is waiting in chambers.
JOSEPH EMBRY
being first duly sworn, was
examined and testified
as follows:
DIRECT
EXAMINATION
BY
MR. FRY:
Q Good afternoon, Dr. Embry.
A Good afternoon.
Q I don't usually see you in
A No sir.
Q If you will, introduce yourself to the
ladies and gentlemen of the jury, please, sir.
A My name is Joseph Embry.
Q And what do you do?
A I'm a forensic pathologist for the
Alabama Department of
Forensic Sciences.
Q What does a forensic pathologist do or
what do you do as a forensic
pathologist?
A Well, my area includes
east to the
Page 363
cover
Q All right. And what do you do in those
counties, Doctor?
A At the request of the coroners, the
county coroners and with the
authorization of the District Attorneys, I do autopsy on people who die
unexpectedly or without a doctor in attendance or violent -- with coroners
cases, in other word@.
Q You are a medical doctor, are you not?
A That's correct.
Q And to be a forensic pathologist, you have
to be not only a doctor but have other specialized training; is -that not
correct?
A Yes, sir. .
Q And to do what you do or to be doing what
you are doing now, Dr. Embry, if you will, share with the jury the highlights
of your career.
A Well
Q As far as your education, Doctor.
A I graduated from medical school at the
Page 364
Hospital, University of
After I finished my
residency I spent two years in the Broward County Medical Examiner's Office in
After that time I came to
Q How long have you been in
A I have been in
Q During the course of those 17 years, do you
have any idea how many autopsies you have performed for the State of
A Over 3500.
Q Have you testified in a court of law
before, been qualified as an expert witness?
A Yes, sir.
MR. FRY: We would
offer Dr. Embry as an expert.
MR. DRAKE: We agree he is qualified as
an
expert.
Q Dr. Embry, back in May of last year, were
you working as a forensic pathologist there at your
Page 365
you working as a forensic
pathologist there at your office in
A Yes, sir.
Q And at some point in time did you perform
an autopsy on the body of Dr. Jack Wilson?
A Yes, sir.
Q And do you know who or by whom the body was
identified to you?
A The body was delivered by one of our so-
called contract drivers, Bob Rundle. And
I was there when he arrived with the body.
Q All right.
Was there a procedure that you used
well, first, were you asked to perform an autopsy on Dr. Wilson's body?
A Yes, sir.
Q What was the purpose of that autopsy or
examination?
A Well! the main purpose was to determine the
cause of death and to contribute in the determination of the manner o4f death,
whether homicide, accident, suicide, or natural, and then to define the wounds,
if there were any, and any natural disease that might have contributed to his
death or other information such as that.
Page 366
Q A11 right, sir. What is the process that you
used, the techniques, in doing this autopsy?
You did do the autopsy; is
that correct?
A That's correct.
Q And without going through the steps of your
findings, what is the process that you used to make a determination as to the
cause of death?
A Well, an autopsy is a complete external and
internal examination of a body.
Q Do you examine fluids?
A Yes, sir.
Q And do you -- when you say
"internal,'" does that mean you actually dissect organs of the body
or do a visual or physical inspection of them?
A Yes.
We remove the organs and dissect them. Yes, sir.
Q All right.
And you have dictated or have transcribed a report or protocol of
autopsy on Dr. Jack W. Wilson; is that correct?
A I have, yes, sir.
Q You did that yourself after making the
physical inspection and examination of Dr. Wilson's body; is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Page 367
Q Would you share with the jury what your
findings were as to any injuries or trauma which
you observed to his body,
Dr. Embry?
A The injuries he had were confined to his
head, his neck, his forearms and hands and his
right shoulder.
He
had nine lacerations or tears in his head.
These ranged from seven-eighths of an inch
up to two and a half inches
in length. Most of them were about an
inch and a half in length. Two of
them were in the forehead
alone, another two were partly in the scalp and partly in the forehead. Two of then were on the left side of his
head. One of them was pretty much in the midline of his
forehead, one of them was
equally in the left side and right side of his head, and the other five were in
the right side of his head. They were in the front of the right side and the
back of the right side, front of the left side and back of the left side. So
they were basically all over his head.
Six of then were deep, all
the way down to the
skull. Some of them extended through five of the six
layers of the scalp, and a couple of them were more superficial, just into the
middle layer of the
Page 368
scalp. The most severe blows were in the front of
his head. and beneath a one and three-eighths inch laceration that was about a
quarter of an inch to
the right of the midline in
his forehead, was a
skull fracture. Beneath the two-inch laceration in the top of
his head, that was the one that was one inch in the right side and one inch in
the left
side, another skull fracture
was present. In the right side of his head, about two inches to the
right of the center line,
was a two and a half-inch laceration, the largest one, and there was an
underlying fracture in that location.
So the fractures were in both the left
and the right side, in the
midline, basically
beneath -- in the
forehead. And then there were three
fractures extending backward from a vertical fracture that dropped down into
the base of his skull, almost all the way to the midline in the base of his
skull. A very large fracture.
More
specifically, above and behind his right ear were three lacerations. The one in front extended down to the skull,
it was one and three- fourths inches in length, then a half-inch behind that
was a seven-eighths inch laceration which
Page 369
extended in depth into the
middle layer of the
scalp. And then five-eighths
inch behind that was
a one and one-half inch
laceration which also extended in depth down to the middle layer of the scalp.
In the left forehead was one and three- eighths inch laceration, in this
location, and in the back of the left side of his head was a two-inch laceration
which extended in a central area of one- half by three-eighths inch down to the
skull. So he had nine lacerations of his
head. t
In
the right side of his neck, he had a bruise that was two by one and
three-fourth inches. It extended almost to the midline, a half inch
below his Adam's apple, in
this location. The back of this bruise,
which was fresh appearing, extended to the large -- to the front of the large
muscle in the side of the neck, the sternomastoid
muscle. Three-fourths inch behind that bruise was a C- shaped bruise, one and a
quarter by two and a quarter inches.
There was hemorrhage in the
muscles of the neck on the
right side beneath that and the hyoid bone, which is a small U-shaped bone that
sits above the voice box was broken on the right side, with hemorrhage, or
bleeding, around
Page 370
the fracture.
He had a three by four-inch rounded red and blue bruise, also
fresh appearing, in the side
of his right shoulder. He had a two by one-inch bruise in the back
of the right shoulder with two small superficial tears or lacerations in the
center of it, and the top of
the shoulder blade, where it articulates with the collarbone, was
broken, in this area,
beneath this bruise in the
back of his right shoulder.
He had bruises in the back
of his hands and in the back of his left forearm and on the
inside of both forearms.
He
had complete fractures, that were best seen with X-rays, of the forearms on
both sides,
both bones in each forearm
were broken. The
radius, the bone on the thumb
side, was broken fairly close to -- a few inches from the elbow. And the ulna, the bone on the inside or
little finger side, was broken on each side in about the mid portion of his
forearm.
Then he had fractures of the left fourth and fifth metacarpal
bones, the knuckle bones that extend from the knuckles to the wrist, towards
the
Page 371
knuckle on the fifth
metacarpal and towards the
wrist on the fourth
metacarpal, the ring finger metacarpal.
And the bone on X-ray was
displaced, the fifth metacarpal was displaced inward towards the thumb side.
On the right hand he had a
complete fracture of the fifth metacarpal, the little finger metacarpal, near
the knuckle, which was consistent with a boxer's fracture, in that it was
buckled upward, a type of fracture you see in boxers when they strike a hard
surface. Of course, it could also be a
defensive wound, something striking his hand.
He did not have any prominent bruising in the back of his
right hand, but he had bruising in the back of the thumb and the forefinger,
middle finger and little finger; all the fingers, in other words, except the
ring finger, in the area close to the back of his hand.
And in the back of his left hand, he had bruising of the same
dimension, about five-eighths inch in diameter in the back of each finger but
not the thumb. And he had a ring on, when he came to
Page 372
me, that was-bent, and he
had a half-inch
laceration in the back of
the ring finger in
association with that.
Those
were the blunt injuries that he
had. I think I may have mentioned that there were
lacerations in association with the fractures. One on the right side and four on the left
side, on the inside of his forearms, up to an inch in length.
And
there were bone fragments in some of the -- in at least one of these
lacerations on the left side. And they
were, I believe, due to the bone breaking the skin when it was fractured. Those were the blunt injuries that he had.
And
he also had two stab wounds.
Q Dr. Embry, before we go on to those, let me
ask you to look at what I have marked as State's Exhibits -- they may be out of
order, but they are marked. P-51, P-53 and P-58.
A Yes.
MR. HOOPER: Would you repeat those. 51
and
what?
MR.
FRY: 51, 53, and 58.
Q Now, you have seen these others which I
have marked as P-55, P-56, P-52, P-54, and P-57.
Page 373
describing some wounds to
the -- that I would call forearms or wrists and fingers. Did some -- by the way, did you make these
photographs or were they
made at your request by your
staff?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were they made during the time that you
had begun to do the autopsy itself or around the
time you did the autopsy?
A They were, yes.
MR.
HOOPER: We are not going to object
to those photographs.
MR.
FRY: Okay. Well, all right. We move all of those that I just enumerated into
evidence, then, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Is that 51, 53,
and 58?
MR. FRY: 51 through 58.
THE
COURT: They are admitted.
Q Dr. Embry, what I would ask you to do, if
you will, is use the photographs and maybe be able to show the jury with the
photographs the injuries which you have just described in some detail.
(Brief
pause.)
Q Dr. Embry, those are small photos. If
you want to come right here
and kind of center
Page 374
you want to come right here and
kind of center yourself , and after you have shown those to the
jury as a whole, we will
pass them around so they
can have a better look.
A These are some of the lacerations that he
had in his scalp and forehead. This is
the one that was pretty much in the midline, overlying the fracture. Then he had a two-inch laceration here
in the scalp, that was about
an inch in each the right and left
sides.
He
had a laceration that went through the front side of -- this two-inch
laceration, partly into the forehead.
And
you can see the one and three-eighths inch laceration in the left side of his
forehead here, and the largest of the three above and behind his right ear is
also visible in this photograph.
Q Doctor, before you go on to the next one,
and pardon me for interrupting, but you were
talking about lacerations.
For most of us, to me, a laceration means a cut, but a laceration is not
necessarily a cut, is it?
A A laceration is
a blunt force injury
where the tissue is torn by
the blunt force
Page 375
instrument.
Q Do you have any opinion as to what kind
of blunt force would have
made the injuries which you examined, particularly to Dr. Wilson's head and
scalp?
A Well, the fact that his scalp is fractured,
indicates that it was a large amount of force.
And also in his brain, in the ventricles, the cavities in the brain, are
small vascular
structures where the spinal fluid is made, called the choroid plexus, and there was bleeding in this structure,
which is also an indicator that there
was a large amount of force
applied. And, of
course, there were bruises
in the brain, another indicator.
Q All right.
A All I can say is a large amount of force.
Q Let me ask you this: Would an instrument
such as this, applied with
force, be able to do the damage that you
witnessed on Dr. Wilson's skull?
A Yes , sir .
Q okay.
A This is a facial frontal photograph showing
the laceration that was in the center of
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his forehead, and you can
also see the one in the
top of his scalp that was
visible in this f first photograph. This
photograph shows the bruise in
his neck, which may well be
the outline of the instrument. A lot of
times with a rod-shaped instrument. there will be blood expressed around the
instrument, outlining the profile of the instrument itself .
You
can also see some of the lacerations in the right side of his head. The scalp
has been shaved in these
photographs. This photograph shows the
front of his chest and abdomen, the deformity
of his forearms due to the
displaced fractures, and also some of the injuries in his forehead. You can also see a couple of stab wounds,
which I'll describe in a minute.
He had chronic disease of
his intestine, and then had his large bowel removed. This is an outlet for the end of his small
intestine, with a bag over it. In the
right side of his abdomen.
Q Is that what would commonly be referred to
as a colostomy bag?
A Well, that's the most common operation, but
in this case they took out the colon, that's an
Page 377
ileostomy,
that's the end of the small intestine.
And this is a photograph showing the
right side of his head. You can see the three lacerations above and
behind his right ear, the
large laceration in the
frontal scalp and the ones that -- in the front of his head. As well as the bruise in the right side of
his neck and the bruise in the back of his shoulder, is visible in this
picture.
Then the other three pictures are photographs of the right
forearm, and you can see
the laceration overlying the
fracture and some of the bruising and abrasions and scrapes in the
inside part of the right
forearm. And then the same area on the
left side, you can see the four lacerations and some of the bruising and the
large bruise in the back of the mid portion of his right forearm that was over
four inches in diameter.
Finally, in the back of the
left hand,
you can see the bruising in
the fingers, the bruising overlying the fractures in the metacarpal bones, and
the laceration in the left ring finger where the ring was present. You can also see the bruising in the back of
his left forearm.
Page 378
Q
Dr. Embry, you may have testified, but if you didn't, the bruising and
the breaking of the bones in the arms and forearms and the carpals or fingers
themselves, is that consistent, with your experience, with what I believe you
have mentioned
a moment ago to be offensive
or blocking-type wounds?
A Yes
The fractures in his forearms are really classical for this, in which
there are fractures of the radius, the bone on the thumb side closer to the
elbow, and the ulna., the other bone in the mid portion, of someone trying to
shield themselves.
Q Could that baseball bat or softball bat,
whichever it is, again,
could that have been the type of weapon that you would have expected to inflict
the kind of wounds or trauma you observed
in Dr. Wilson?
A Yes, sir.
Q All right. Thank you very much. Now, would
you describe for the jury, if you will, what other sources or evidence of
trauma you discovered during your autopsy of Dr. Wilson's body?
A He had two stab wounds. He had a stab
Page 379
wound that was just short of
three-fourths of an
inch in length, on the
surface of the skin. I measured it as twenty-three thirty-seconds of an inch.
That was located three and five-eighths
inches below his right
nipple, and four inches to
the right of the center
line, that is, over the
fifth and sixth ribs, in
this area. That wound on the surface was vertical, the wound margins went
together nicely and they were smooth, and the
angles were V-shaped, there
were no hilt mark@; or other bruising of the skin, and the stab wound
track went basically
straight back through the
fifth and sixth ribs,
through the cartilage part, the softer part of the ribs, through the diaphragm
and into the liver. I could measure the
wound in
the liver fairly accurately,
and it was three
inches
deep, tapered to a point. So that the
overall length of the wound
was essentially approximately four inches.
It appeared to go vertically straight back, no deviation to his right or
left, and no significant deviation up or down. That wound was 42 and a half
inches above the sole of his right foot.
He was only five feet four inches tall.
Page 380
The other stab wound was 40
and a fourth inches, that is, about two and a half inches below the level of
the one in his chest. And it was in
his left upper abdomen. It
extended to the center line of his abdomen and was three-fourths of an
inch in greatest dimensions.
Actually, it was V- shaped, with the larger limb measuring three-
fourths of an inch and the
shorter limb, at right angles to it, measuring three-eighths of an inch.
The wound was two and a
quarter inches above @is navel. The sides, again, were smooth and the
angles were sharp, V-shaped,
with no bruising of
the skin. The path of the
stab wound was through is abdominal wall, through the margin of his stomach,
the greater, larger -- or greater curvature of his stomach, the outer portion
of his stomach, by five- eighths inch perforation, through the body of his
pancreas, through the superior mesenteric vein, in which I could measure
three-eighths inch perforations, slit-like perforations, in both the front and
the back of the vein. Then through the left renal vein, in which there were
one-fourth
inch perforations in both
the front and the back. And then the wound stopped just in front of the
Page 381
aorta. It was from his front
to his back and downward with no significant deviation to his right or left and
was approximately two and a half inches deep.
Q Dr. Embry, do you have an opinion or do
you have any knowledge of
what kind of weapon, in general terms, caused the cuts or those stab wounds
that you have described to the jury?
A only in very general terms, because a
wound can be actually deeper than the length 6f the blade, because the body can
give a certain amount when a stab wound is inflicted, but with respect to the
width of the blade, it would correspond fairly closely to the length of the
wound on the surface of the skin. And in
this case they were each approximately three-fourths of an inch.
Q Were you asked to examine either a
photograph or photostatic or photocopy of a knife
blade submitted to you by the forensic lab in
A Yes, sir.
Q That was of a knife blade; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you do an analysis or evaluation to
Page 382
determine whether or not
that blade width, length, was consistent with the wounds with Dr. Wilson
sustained?
A I did, yes, sir.
Q What were your findings?
A In my opinion, it was consistent with that
knife, the two wounds that he had.
Q There would be no way for you to say that
it was the knife; is that correct?
A No, sir.
Q Now, there were two separate sets of,
apparently, very serious types of trauma to Dr. Wilson; is that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Beginning, if you will, Dr. Embry, with the
head injuries, in your opinion were those injuries survivable?
A No, sir.
Q Then, getting to the cuts, the stabbing,
were those wounds survivable without medical attention, of course?
A No, they were not. The wound in his liver
perforated a branch of the hepatic vein and, of course, the other wound
perforated several
Page 383
vessels.
Q What Is the
significance of that?
A They would have not been -- they were
lethal wounds.
Q Is that a major vessel for carrying blood
throughout the body?
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you have any way of knowing, based on
your experience, your education and your training, the length of survivability
that you would have expected from the time of the assault until the death in
both of these separate kinds of wounds; that is, first the laceration or blunt
force
trauma, then, secondly, the
stabbing?
A Well, in my opinion the stab wounds would have
been fatal within 20 to 30 minutes at the greatest. As far as the head wounds, I know that from
examination of his brain, there were
indicators showing that he
lived at least 30
minutes after he was beaten
in the head. And he could have lived
longer than that.
Q Any way for you to know with any kind of
empirical certainty how long he would have lived from either type of wound?
Page 384
A No.
Q Based on what you have?
A No, sir.
Q So what would be the range of
survivability, then, for the head blows, from 30 minutes to --
A Hours.
Q Hours?
A Yes, sir.
Q And what would be the shortest period you
would expect from the stab
wounds?
A 20 minutes.
Q 20 minutes. And the upper limit 30 minutes,
is that what you said?
A Yes.
Q Now -- and that is based on your training
and that is an expert opinion; is that right, Dr. Embry?
A Yes, sir.
Q You are comfortable with those figures?-
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you determine the cause of death of Dr.
Jack Wilson?
A Yes, sir.
Page 385
Q What did you determine the cause to be?
A well, in my opinion, he died from both
the head wounds and the stab
wounds. He did not bleed from the stab
wounds to the extent that he would have had he not had the head wounds. In other words, he only had about 250 ccls, which is about eight ounces, of free blood in his
abdominal
cavity. Had he just suffered the stab wounds, he
would have had much more f he would have had four times that amount., which
would have been the normal lethal amount of blood, the normal amount of blood
you see in a stab wound to the abdomen where the large vessels are
perforated. So I think he died of a
combination of the head injuries and the stab wounds.
Q All right.
MR.
FRY: Excuse me just one second.
(Brief pause.)
MR. FRY: Dr. Embry, that is
all I have.
If you will, kindly, sir,
answer whatever questions the defense would have.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. DRAKE:
Q Dr. Embry, I'm Jack Drake. How are you?
Page 386
A Fine.
Q I take it that basically what happened is
that Dr. Wilson was savagely, brutally, beaten with some kind of blunt
instrument, probably this baseball bat, and stabbed twice, and as a result of
those injuries he died?
A Yes, sir.
Q Is that basically what happened?
A Yes, sir.
Q And isn't it true, Doctor, that those kinds
of injuries, that is, the kinds of injuries that were inflicted, particularly
to his head, are consistent with him having been surprised in his house by a
burglar and they had a confrontation and the man beat him to death?
A Consistent with that, yes, sir.
Q Totally consistent with that, isn't it?
A Yes, sir.
Q You say you have examined 3500 bodies over
the past number of years that you have been employed in this position?
A Yes,
sir.
Q Have you examined the bodies of people who
have been victims of contract killers?
Page 387
A A few.
Q Isn't it true that contract killers
normally shoot their victims?
A Not in
Q What about the food that you found in Dr.
Wilson's stomach that I noticed in your report; can you tell us what you found?
A He had recognizable food, about a pint of
food, about 250 grams or a little over eight
ounces. It included some yellow particles that
were reminiscent of cheese,
some green beans, some brown material and some pieces of cut yellow vegetable
that was reminiscent of squash. And also some red material reminiscent of
tomato. And some green material that was
consistent with lettuce.
Q Were you able to determine how long that
food had been in his stomach?
A That's really very difficult to say. In the
absence of any factors that might slow down his digestion, I would say he had
eaten within the last hour. But there are factors which make it very difficult
to say that with great certainty. If a
person is frightened, for instance, the movement of food through the stomach
will virtually stop.
Page 388
Q Okay. Were you able to determine, with any
degree of specificity, when he died, the time?
A The best indicator was the circumstances.
Q Well, were you able to come up with a
time of death?
A In my opinion, he died shortly after he was
last seen alive.
Q Okay.
You told us that he was five feet four inches tall and I believe that
your report indicates that he weighed 122 pounds; is that' correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q He was a small person.
MR.
DRAKE: Thank you.
THE COURT: Any more questions?
MR.
FRY: Nothing else, Your Honor. And, of course, we would ask that Dr. Embry
be excused and released to go back to
THE COURT: Mr. Drake, do you know of any reason why he cannot
be excused?
MR. DRAKE: No.
THE COURT: Dr. Embry, you
may be
excused.
Thank you, sir.
We
are going to take a short recess,
Page 389
ladies and gentlemen. Please go into the jury
room.
(Whereupon,
the jury was recessed at
THE
COURT: Mr. Fry, are you ready?
MR. FRY: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: And are you gentlemen ready? MR. DRAKE: Yes, sir.
THE
COURT: Okay. Call your next
witness.
MR.
FRY: Call James Dennison White to
the stand, Your Honor.
(Brief
pause.)
THE COURT: Mr. White is indicted in this same case, is
he not?
MR.
FRY: He is a co-defendant, Your Honor,
charged with the same offense.
THE COURT: Mr. White is present in the courtroom and
Mr. Miller represents him. where is
Mr. Miller?
MR.
MILLER: Here, Your Honor.
THE
COURT: Mr. White, state your name,
please.
Page 390
MR. WHITE: James Dennison White.
THE
COURT: Mr. White, you have been called
by the State to testify in this case, the State of
MR. WHITE: Yes, sir, I have.
THE COURT: You are
advised at this time that you have a right, a constitutional right against
self-incrimination, you have a constitutional right not to testify in this
case. Have you been so advised by your attorney?
MR.
WHITE: Yes, sir, I was.
THE COURT: And do you understand the admonition -- not admonition, but this instruction by the
Court?
MR. WHITE: Yes, sir, I do.
THE COURT:
What is your desire and what are your wishes?
MR.
WHITE: I wish to waive my right and be
a witness and testify in this case, sir.
THE COURT: It is your desire to waive
Page 391
your constitutional rights
and testify in this
case?
MR. WHITE; Yes, sir,
it is.
THE
COURT: Mr. Miller, do you have anything
to add to this?
MR. MILLER: None at all.
THE COURT: You do represent him?
MR.
MILLER: Yes, sir, Your Honor.
THE
COURT: It's his decision?
MR.
MILLER: It’s his decision by himself
and alone.
THE COURT: And he has made
it?
MR.
MILLER: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: Are there
any questions, Mr. Fry?
MR. FRY: No questions
by the State, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Are there any questions by
the
defense counsel?
MR. COOK: Well, not about his waiver -- THE
COURT: I'm talking about his waiver
of
his rights.
MR. COOK: Oh, no. We
are glad that he waived.
Page 392
THE COURT: Then, Mr. White,
if you will stand, the Court will give you the oath and you will be permitted
to waive your constitutional rights to testify.
Stand and raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear the
testimony you shall give in this cause to be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?
MR. WHITE: Yes, sir, I do.
THE
COURT: Now, we are going to recess until in the morning at
(Whereupon,
the jury was placed in the jury box; at which time, the following occurred:)
THE COURT: Now, ladies
and gentlemen, we have reached a decision, due to the lateness of the hour, to
recess until -- and to adjourn until in the morning. And we will do so until in the morning at
In the meantime, do not discuss the case
Page 393
with anyone, permit no one
to discuss it with you or in your presence.
Now,
so that they may get things ready
for you, if you will, go
back to the jury room at this time. They
will be ready to take you very shortly.
And Court will be in
recess. Everybody remain seated until
the jury has had an opportunity to file back to the jury room.
(Whereupon,
proceedings were in recess at 5:35 p.m. , February 23, 1993, until the next
following consecutive day, February 24, 1993, at 8:30 a.m., at which time the
following occurred out of the presence and hearing of the jury:)
THE COURT: Mr. Fry, are you ready?,
MR.
FRY: State is ready, your Honor.
THE COURT: Defendant ready?
MR.
COOK: We are ready, Your Honor.
THE
COURT: And the witness, White, would you bring the witness around.
(Brief pause.)
THE COURT: Where is Roy Miller?
MR.
MILLER: Right here, Judge.
THE
COURT: Do you want to be up here?
Page 394
MR. MILLER: I would like to be.
THE COURT: Well, come
around.
MR. FRY: We can put a chair over on the other side,
whatever he wants to do. Going to be
here awhile, he may want to
sit down.
THE
COURT: Okay. Do you see a chair that we can put over
there?
MR.
FRY: Here's an extra one, Your
Honor.
THE
COURT: All right. Now, you are Mr. White?
MR.
WHITE: Yes, sir, I am.
THE COURT: Mr. White, you
were sworn yesterday?
MR.
WHITE: Yes, sir.
THE
COURT: Upon our adjournment. And
were advised of your
constitutional rights not to testify?
MR.
WHITE: Yes, sir, I was.
THE COURT: You were told that you did
not have to and you waived
your privilege against self-incrimination?
MR. WHITE: Yes, sir, I did.
THE
COURT: You do understand that
Page 395
anything you might say here
in this courtroom can and will be used against you in a court of law?
MR. WHITE: Yes, sir, I do.
THE
COURT: In the case against you?
MR.
WHITE: Yes, sir, I do.
THE COURT: You
understand that?
MR. WHITE: Yes, sir, I do.
THE COURT: Mr. Miller,
you represent
him?
MR. MILLER: Yes, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: And here, again, this morning you
re-affirm your waiver of your right
against self-incrimination.
MR. WHITE: Yes, sir, I do.
THE
COURT: Constitutional right.
MR.
WHITE: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right.
Bring the jury out.
(Whereupon, the jury was placed in the jury box; at which
time, the following occurred:)
THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
Mr. Fry, are you ready?
MR.
FRY: We are, Your Honor.
Page 396
THE COURT: Defendant ready?
proceed. MR. COOK:
Yes, sir, we are ready to
THE COURT: Mr. Fry,
you may proceed.
JAMES
DENNISON WHITE
being first duly sworn, was
examined and testified as follows:
DIRECT
EXAMINATION
BY MR. FRY:
Q Good morning.
A Good morning.
Q Would you tell the ladies and gentlemen of
the jury who you are, please.
A My name is James Dennison White.
Q James, where are you from?
A I'm from
Q Where were you born?
A Born in
Q Where are you staying currently?
A Right now I'm housed in the Madison County
Jail.
Q Have you been brought down here for the
purpose of this trial?
A Yes, sir, I have.
Page 397
Q Are you a co-defendant in this charge?
MR.
DRAKE: I object to that
characterization. He used that term
twice
yesterday and this man is
not a co-defendant in
this case.
THE
COURT: Rephrase your question, Mr. Fry.
MR.
FRY: Yes, I will, Your Honor.
of Dr. Jack Wilson?
A Yes, I have.
Q Is that charge pending against you at
this time?
A Yes, sir, it is.
Q Is that the reason for your
incarceration?
A Yes, sir, it is.
Q Now, James, the Judge has explained to
you already this morning
that you do not have to testify in this case; is that right?
A Yes, he did.
Q Do you understand that?
A Yes? I do.
Q You realize what you say this morning can
Page 398
be used against you?
A Yes, sir, I do.
Q Are you willing to testify even though
what you say may be used against you in
a court of law?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where did you go to school?
A I went to school at A.H. Whatley Elementary
and I went to
Q Did you graduate?
A No, sir, I did not.
Q How far did you go in school?
A I went to the eighth grade.
Q Have you got any additional education other
than completing the eighth grade?
A Yes, sir.
While I have been housed in Madison County Jail, I have been taking my
GED
test, and I just took it
last week.
Q So you are working on your education?
A Yes, sir, I am.
Q Have you completed any of your GED courses?
A Well, I have already took the exam. I am
waiting to get my test results back now.
Page 399
Q What did you do when you dropped out of
school from wherever you were going?
A I went to work at Jack's Hamburgers, and
shortly after that I went into the military
service.
Q How old were you when you did that?
A I was 16 years old when I went to work at
Jack's Hamburgers, and I went into the
military service right after I turned 17.
Q What year would that have been?
A 1968 .
Q What branch of the Service did you go into?
A Went into the Army.
Q What was your MOS, or military occupational
specialty?
A Well, it's called 11 Bravo 10, but what
it
means is that I'm a foot soldier, infantry.
Q You were trained to be a foot soldier; is
that correct?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you go overseas during the time you were
in the Army?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Page 400
Q Where did you go?
A First I went to
after I went to
more years and then I went
to
Q When did you go to
A In 1969 .
Q And when did you come back?
A June of 1970.
Q Where were you in
A I was on a place they called LD West, but
my rear stand-down area was called Chu Lai.
Q
A Yes, sir.
Q You were with the Americal
division; is that right?
A Yes, sir -- 196th Infantry Brigade, Americal Division.
Q What did you do -- what did you do when you
got out of the Army? When did you get out?
A I got out
Q And what did you do upon getting out of the
Army?
A I moved to
Page 401
Q Where did you go to work?
A I went to work at a fast food restaurant.
Q What did you do there?
A I was a short-order cook.
Q Do people call you "Cookie"?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you cook in the Army?
A I did for a while when I was in
Q Where did you pick up the name Cookie?
A There was a German girl over there, and one
night when we went downtown, me and some
other guys, she asked me what I done on
post, and I told her I was a cook, and
she said, 110h, you are a cookie."
See , all the guys just picked up on the nickname and started calling me
Cookie.
Q You said some people have known you as
cookie overseas?
A Yes.
Q Did you get married after you came back
from
A Yes, sir, but I was back about two years
before I got married the first time.
Q Where were you when you got married?
A Lawrenceville, Georgia.
Page 402
Q Was there a child born to that marriage?
A My first marriage, no, sir. The girl already had a child that I married
first.
Q Did that marriage last?
A No, sir.
That first marriage lasted
about
six months.
Q And what happened?
A She was running around, and she got
caught in my car uptown one
night, when I was at
work, with about seven or
eight guys inn the car with her.
Q Did you divorce her or leave her?
A We divorced.
Q Was that in
A Yes, sir, it was.
Q Were you married again?
A Yes, sir.
I married a girl named Jane
Guthrie.
Q When and where was that?
A Also in
married
her in 1973.
Q Are there any children born of that
marriage?
A Yes, sir.
I have a daughter by her named
Page 403
Lorena Michelle.
Q How old is that daughter?
A Probably about 20
years old right now.
Q Are you in contact
with her?
A No, sir, I am not.
Q Was there a third marriage?
A Yes, sir, there was.
Q When and where was
that?
A It was in nineteen seventy -- 1978. 1 married a girl named Mary Sue Woods.
Q And where did you marry her?
A I married her in
Q And were there children born between you
and your wife in that marriage?
A Yes, sir, there were two children.
Q How many?
A Two.
Q Two kids.
What happened to that
marriage?
A After about three years, there was
another problem of running
around and just
incompatibility.
Q Were you having some problems, too,
James?
Page 404
A Yes, sir, I was.
Q What was your problem?
A Alcohol and drug abuse.
Q Did that contribute to the breakdown of
your marriage?
A Yes, sir, it did.
Q Now, where are those two children?
A They are with their mother in
Q Are you in contact with them?
A Yes, sir, I am.
Q Do you get to visit with them or talk to
them from time to time?
A Yes, sir, I do.
Q When was the last time you saw them?
A The last time I saw them was in 1991.
Q When was that, what time of year?
A Shortly after
Christmas. My oldest
A Shortly after Christmas My
oldest
son -- my oldest son went
back home to his mother, first, and shortly after that my oldest daughter went
back home to her mother. I had them
for about nine months or ten months. I
sent them to school for the year of 1990.
Q And then they went to live with their
Page 405
mother?
A Right.
Q And you were married, I believe, one more
time; is that right?
A Yes, sir, I was.
Q When and where were you married for the
fourth marriage?
A I was married in
wedding. I married a girl named Cheryl Wilson at that
time. And that was back in 1983.
Q Were children born of that marriage?
A Yes, sir, there was.
Q How many kids did you have?
A We had two.
Q What
are their names?
A My little girl'-- name is Kelly Renee and
my son is named Ethan Allen -- I mean, Ethan Clay. Excuse me.
Q Do you have contact with those kids?
A Yes, I do.
Q When have you seen them last?
A I haven't seen them since I have been
incarcerated.
Page 406
Q Prior to going -- how long have you been in
jail, James?
A Nine months.
Q Was that beginning in the latter part of
May of last year?
A Yes, sir, it is.
Q Had you seen your kids before being
incarcerated?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q How often did you see those kids?
A I seen them every other weekend and
sometimes I would get them -- if they
had a school break or something, I would get them and keep them
f
or a week or so.
Q Okay. And when -- how long did this last
marriage, this fourth marriage -- how
long did it last?
A Nine years.
Q And when did it end?
A It ended July of 1990.
Q How did it end?
A My wife was running around on me with
another man.
Q Who was that man?
Page 407
A His name is Terry Frost.
Q And is her name Cheryl Frost now?
A Yes, sir, it is.
Q Are you all divorced?
A Yes, sir, we are.
Q She and Mr. Frost then married?
A Yes, sir.
Q That's her last name today; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where were you living at the time you
were
divorced?
A we was living in Harpersville,
Q And is that anywhere near
A Yes, sir, it's about three miles
separation between Harpersville and Vincent.
Q Over there in that area of the country,
is -- Vincent, you say, is
close to Harpersville . Where is Childersburg?
A It would be about 10 to 12 miles down the
road from Vincent.
Q From Vincent where is Sylacauga?
Page 408
A Sylacauga would be about 20 miles on
further down the road.
Q From Vincent where is
A
Q Is it kind of a cluster of towns on
over there?
A Yes, sir, there is several different ways
to go from Vincent to
Q They are close to each other?
A Yes, sir, they are.
Q Now, James, you are charged with capital
murder, as you have already said; is that correct?
A Yes, sir, I am.
Q You are represented by an attorney from
A Yes, sir, I am.
Q Who is that?
A Roy Wesley Miller.
Q Is this Mr. Miller right here?
A Yes, sir, it is.
Q Do you remember when he was appointed to
represent you?
Page 409
A Yes, sir.
Q When was that?
A It was around May the 26th, May 27th, he
was appointed to me, of 1991.
Q Would that have been the day you were
arrested or shortly thereafter?
A Shortly after I got arrested.
Q Did you enter into an agreement with some
people in the Madison County District Attorney's office in regard to testifying
or giving information that you knew about this case?
A Yes, sir, I was.
Q Who did you talk to about that? Do you
remember who they were?
A Well, my attorney came to me first, then I
talked to Detective Micky Brantley.
Q He is the gentleman seated to the right
of
Mr. Miller here; is that right?
A Yes, sir, it is.
Q can you see him?
A Yes, sir, I can.
Q Was he present when that agreement was
made?
A Yes, he was.
Page 410
Q Had you talked to him before the
agreement was made?
A Yes, sir, I had.
Q Do you know how many occasions?
A I would say at least four occasions I
talked to Mr. Brantley before the agreement was reached.
Q And is it because of that agreement you are
testifying here today? Is that a part of
it?
A Yes, sir.
Q Will you explain to the jury what you
understand the agreement to be that you made with the State of
DA's Office?
A My understanding was, if I cooperated
with the DA's Office
completely and fully, that I would be -- my charge would be lessened down to a
murder charge and I would receive a straight life sentence for my testimony
here today.
Q Were there any additional things concerning
corroborating what information you gave?
A Yes, sir.
I was told that --
MR.
DRAKE: I object to that; it's a leading
question. Also calls for a legal
Page 411
conclusion. Corroboration is
a legal principle.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q Will you explain, were there some other
conditions other than just giving information, James, in regard to your
understanding of the agreement?
A I was told that I had to give corroborating
evidence.
MR.
DRAKE: I object, Judge; got a smart
witness here, who is going to use the word even though you sustained the
objection.
THE COURT: Mr. Drake, just
make your objection.
MR. DRAKE: I object.
THE COURT: You don't have to present argument. Rephrase your question.
Q Okay. What I asked for -- don't use
legalese or legal terms, James. You are
not a lawyer. But were there any other
conditions other than just the fact that you testify in this case?
A Yes, sir, there was.
Q What was that?
A I was told I had
to give corroborating evidence –
Page 412
MR. DRAKE: I object; one thing, it's hearsay, but it's
also the same objection I made previously.
He is drawing a legal conclusion himself .
THE
COURT: Well, sustained.
Q Were you required to do -- provide
information, James, to the DA's Office which could be confirmed by sources
other than yourself?
MR.
DRAKE: objection; it's a leading
question.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q James, let me ask you this: What is your understanding in this case if
you told the police
or told the DA's office
something that turned out
to be a lie to a material
fact?
MR.
DRAKE: objection; the agreement speaks
for itself. His understanding is not
admissible.
THE COURT: You want to -- do you object to the
introduction of that agreement?
MR. DRAKE: No.
THE COURT: Mr. Fry --
MR. FRY: I will come back to that, Your Honor.
Page 413
THE COURT: All right.
MR.
COOK: I have got the agreement, Mr.
Fry, if you would like it.
MR.
FRY: Sure . I just need a copy of it.
Q Let me show you what's marked as State's
Exhibit No. 9, Mr. White. I will put it on here
where I don't cover anything
up. Take a minute and look over that, if you will.
(Brief pause.)
Q What is that, what is State's Exhibit 9F
Mr. White?
A That's an agreement I made with the State
of
Q okay.
And does this contain all of the conditions, as far as you know, of the agreement?
A Yes, sir, they do.
Q Were there any side agreements or any
side deals other than what's
in writing?
A No, sir, there were not.
Q And as a part of this, you are to
actively assist in providing
physical evidence
establishing and corroborating
your statements incriminating Betty
Woods Wilson and Peggy Joy
Page 414
Woods Lowe in this case?
A Yes, sir.
Q Okay.
So it was more than just testifying, then; is that right?
A Yes , sir.
MR. FRY: We move this into
evidence as State's Exhibit 9.
MR. COOK: No objection.
THE COURT: State's Exhibit 9 is admitted.
Q one more question along that line. What is
your understanding or what is the agreement, regardless of your understanding,
of what will happen to you, Mr. White, if you lie in this case and I can prove
it?
MR. DRAKE: Objection;
the agreement speaks for itself.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q Okay.
So in the spring of 1991 were you living in
A Yes, sir, I was.
Q Or was it the place next to it, I'm sorry?
A I was living in Vincent.
Page 415
Q In a trailer court; is that right?
A We11 , shortly after me and my wife
separated, I moved to Sylacauga and stayed with my mom for a while. October of 1990, 1 received a settlement on a
workmen's comp case on -- where I fell and hurt my knee at work, then I bought
my own trailer and I moved back to Vincent on a piece of property I was
purchasing at the time.
Q When would that have been?
A Around October or November of 1990.
Q Of 1990?
A Yes, sir.
Q Were you still married at the time?
A No, sir, I was not.
Q Now, in August of 191, where were you
living?
A Living in
Q And where did you live there; what kind
of home did you have?
A I had a mobile home on -- situated on my
piece of property that I was purchasing, which had
a house that needed
remodeling on it.
Q Were you buying the piece of property, is
that what you said?
Page 416
A Yes, Sir, I was.
Q And how were you buying that? Who were
you buying it f from?
A Buying it from a lady named Ethel Gates,
in
back to work.
Q Did you have a loan on that?
A No, sir, it was – she was financing it for
herself.
Q Okay. Now, where were you working in
August of 1991?
A I was basically just doing odd jobs for
myself , and I was doing some work at Vincent
Elementary School.
Q What were you doing at the Vincent
Elementary School?
A They had a new addition added on to the
school and the closets needed shelves put in them,
and I was asked to come and put in
shelves in the
c1osets
Q Had you had any training or experience,
Mr. White, in that kind of
work?
A Yes, Sir, I have been doing carpentry
Page 417
work for about 19 years.
Q What was the status of your employment with
the
A I was just basically doing the work to help
the teachers and stuff out, but the principal, Mr. Lowe -- not Mr. Lowe, but I
can't remember the principal's name, but
the principal was handing me money very now and then for the work I was
doing, and sometimes the teachers would hand money for the work.
Q So you never worked for the Shelby Board of
Education?
A No, sir.
Q Did they pay you cash or checks?
A Well, the principal gave me checks, some of
the teachers would had me cash money for the work I done for them.
Q For them in their classroom?
A Yes, sir.
Q About this time did you meet a lady by
the
name of Peggy Lowe?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Page 418
Q Did you know her before that time, that
is , August or the late
summer of '91?
A As far as knowing her, no, sir, I did
not. I had seen her around the school, because
that’s where my little girl
goes to school at.
Q Which daughter is
that?
A It would be Kayla.
Q And what grade is
she in?
A She started off in pre-school there. Her first school teacher was Mrs. Janice,
and then she went into the first grade.
Q In 1991 what grade was she in?
A First grade.
Q And you met Mrs. Peggy Lowe; is that right?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q How did you meet her?
A I was doing some work for my daughter's
teacher, Mrs. Melanie, by putting shelves in her
closet and on the walls and
stuff . And then some of the other
teachers got to talking to me about doing work in their classes, and I agreed
to it. And that's how I met Mrs.
Lowe.
Q When did you all establish any kind of
Page
419
relationship?
A At first, no, sir, we did not. First it just basically was to do some work
by hanging
shelves in her closet, also.
And then there was something said about, you know, for my work they would carry
me home and cook a nice dinner f or me
and we would go swimming in
the lake and stuff . And I misunderstood her and I thought she said her name
was Miss Lowe, not Mrs. Lowe, and I recompensed on that and she confirmed that
I had heard her say Miss Lowe.
Q Was
she married?
A Yes, sir, she was.
Q Did you all develop a friendship?
A Yes, sir, we did.
Q How did that friendship develop?
A It developed gradually and slowly.
Mostly started off with
telephone calls and stuff like this.
Q Who would call whom?
A Sometimes she would call me and sometimes I
would call her.
Q Where would you call her from?
A Most of the time it would be from my
Page
420
house.
Q In Vincent?
A Yes, sir.
Q Where did she
live?
A She lived in a little old place we call Renfroe, but it is in
Q How far is that from where you lived?
A It would be about -- from my house to her
house would be about 20 miles, because she lives down on the lake, which is
kind of back out in the country.
Q Do you have to cross a lake or a dam to
get to her house from your
house?
A Yes, sir, we have to cross Logan Martin
Dam.
Q So on the map, if you could see that
lake, you kind of got the lake in between the two of
you plus some ground, too, I guess?
A Yes, sir.
Q When did you all start having these
telephone conversations?
A I would say around the latter part of
September, the first part of October.
Q Did she ever call you?
Page
421
A Yes, sir, she did.
Q What did you talk about?
A Basically we talked about our
relationships and our
marriages and stuff like
that. And basically that’s the way the friendship
got started. She knew me and my wife very well and she
couldn't understand why Cheryl had left me because -- the term she used, that
Terry is a whole lot uglier than I am.
Q Well, she knew you were divorced. Were you
-- what was your condition, were you pleased to be divorced or upset about it?
A I was kind of upset, but I was kind of
carrying on with my life, also, which was hard for me to maintain.
Q Did Mrs. Lowe ever talk about her personal
relationship with her husband? I
believe you said she was married to Mr. Lowe?
A Yes, sir, she did.
Q What is his name?
A His name is Wayne Lowe.
Q Where does he work?
A He works at
He is also minister of music
at First Baptist
Page
422
Church there in Vincent.
Q Did she explain to you what their
relationship was?
A Yes, sir, she did.
Q What was that?
A Well , she told me that her and Wayne
hadn't slept together in five years, that they had separate bedrooms, she was
not happy with Wayne, but she stayed
with Wayne because -- she didn't want to
leave Wayne because it would mean her
children would have to get out of the use of the type lifestyle they were used
to living and having some of the nicer things that they were used to having.
Q Well, did you know what their lifestyle
was?
A Not until I started doing some work at
their home.
Q What kind of lifestyle did they have?
A They had well above my means.
Q where did they live?
A They lived on
Q Did they have a boat?
Page
423
A Shortly after they got there, Mr. Lowe bought
a pontoon boat.
Q How many kids did she have?
A As far as I know, she had three.
Q Do you know if they lived at home or not?
A No, sir. The only one lived at home
was
Stephanie.
Q And did Stephanie go to school?
A Yes, sir, she did.
Q Where did she go to school?
A Went to
Q They lived in
A Yes, sir.
Q Is that because her mother was a teacher?
A I guess so. Because they had to drive
back and forth every day
through Vincent for them
to get to their job, so they
just more or less dropped Stephanie off at school every day.
Q Well, did you all ever express any feelings
toward one another during these conversations?
A Yes, sir, we did.
Q When did that kind of conversation begin
Page
424
to occur?
A I cannot really put a date on that, Mr.
Fry. I wish I could. But, I mean, it just
gradually started up,
talking about our
relationship and stuff like
that. And when it came out that we
-- she started showing feelings for me.
I had a very negative
attitude towards it, because
I constantly told her that
her children would not accept me because I consider myself a common man.
Q Okay.
When did -- what kind of feelings were you all expressing, then? You
said she expressed her feelings.
What do you mean by that?
A Well, one night we was having a
conversation on the phone, and she said, "I love, you.” And I thought I
misunderstood her, and I said, “What was that?”
And she
00 d h r
I
a
said, "What was
that?" And she said, "Well,
I
didn’t mean to say it, but,
“she said, “I do.” And,
I mean, just from there the
feelings really started growing.
Q Okay.
Now, you were arrested in May of ‘92.
In relationship to that time, when did these kinds of feelings begin
occurring?
A Well, I would have to say the latter part
of ‘90, first part of ‘91.
Page 425
Q okay.
You are saying '91, you mean '91
or '92?
A I mean, 1992, yes, sir.
Q The end?
A The end of '91, first part of '92 and
stuff.
Q You have been in jail since May of '92,
haven't you?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, did she ever express to you
dissatisfaction with her relationship with her husband?
A Yes, sir, she did.
Q Would you explain what she said or what she
told you about it?
A She had told me she was very dissatisfied
with
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of their living would drop
down if they done that and stuff.
Q You said already, I believe, did you not,
that she told you they hadn't slept together in
five years?
A Yes, sir.
Q Is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q Well , did she ever say anything to you or
inquire about something happening to
A Yes, sir.
That's the way I originally
got involved in this
case. We got to talking and I asked her
why didn't she leave Wayne, and she told me, she said she wished something
would just happen to
Q What did you say?
A I jokingly told her that I had
connections and arrangements
could be made for something like that.
Q Did you have such connections?
A At one time I would have said yes, sir. At
the present time, no, sir, I don't.
Q Well, what happened after you told her
that?
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427
A Well, it got to be a more serious-type
conversation and stuff about it. And
it came
around that she had a friend
that was kind of in the same situation she was in, that needed something
done. And I hee-hawed around and --
because I was trying to win the woman’s affection, because to me she was the
type person I had dreamed of dating or being with ever since I was in high
school, because it’s a higher-type society person than what I was.
And the conversations kept
going, and I come to find out that it was her sister in
Q Did she tell you that?
A Yes, sir, she did.
Q Did she tell you that all in one
conversation or did it take time for that to come out?
A It was over several conversations that
all of it came out.
Q So were you ever -- did you ever plan or
were you ever asked to do something bad to Wayne Lowe?
A She told me one time, she made the hint,
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I ought to go boat-riding
with
her why, and she said,,
"Boat accidents always happen."
Q Did you ever plan on doing anything to
him or did you ever take any
steps towards hurting Wayne Lowe?
A No, sir,
did not.
Q Do you know about what point in time it
would have been, Mr. White, that she began telling you about the sister in
A I'm going to take a --
Q If not the month, the time of the year?
A Shortly after the first of 1992 -- I'll
say around February or March -- is when it started
developing.
Q What did she tell you about her sister in
A Well, really, she never did tell me
anything about her sister. I mean, it
just started off as a conversation that she had a friend that had a problem that
she wanted to try to resolve, and
then when I found out it was
her sister, you know, I said, well -- you know, the conversation got to where
the sister's husband was almost dead, he was
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429
about to die, and stuff. I
said something about why don't they get insurance policies, and he can't get
insurance policies because he is so ill and stuff like this. She said her life was just miserable, the
husband was supposed to have been mistreating her and all this.
Q Did you know her sister or did you know
who the man was?
A No, sir, I did not.
Q At that time had you ever seen either one
of them?
A No, sir, I had not.
Q Now, during this period of time, up to
where we are right now in your testimony, James,
had you and Mrs. Lowe ever gone
anywhere together , gone on a date or gone out?
A No, sir, we met each other in
once.
Q Do you know where that was?
A We met at Kmart or Wal-Mart, one of the
department stores. Then we went over to
a little park about half a mile, three-quarters of a mile from the shopping
center and met in this little park.
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430
Q What happened there?
A We sat -- I sat in the car with her and we
kissed and hugged each other and stuff like that, nothing other than that.
Q Was anybody else present?
A No, sir, there was not.
Q She was a married lady at that time and
still is; is that right?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you knew that?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q Had you continually -- was there
telephone calls still being made up until this present
time?
A Yes, sir.
Q How often did you all call each other?
A Three, four, five times a week, sometimes
six, seven, eight times a week.
Q How long did you talk to her?
A Sometimes we would talk a couple of
hours, sometimes might talk
only 30 minutes because Stephanie or Wayne would be around.
Q At some point in time did the
conversation get more
serious about this sister in
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431
A Yes, sir, it did.
Q When was that?
A I'll say it was around the end of March,
first part of April, of 192.
Q What changed about this?
A It got to be more pressure put on of
getting rid of the person in
Q Did you ever agree to do that or agree to
have it arranged?
A Yes, sir, I did.
Q What did you tell them?
A I told them that I knew a man that would
do a job like that, and I would have to
talk to him.
Q Who did you tell that to?
A I told that to Mrs. Peggy Lowe.
Q What did she tell you?
A She told me to go ahead and make
connections.
Q Was a price for this ever discussed?
A Yes, sir, it was.
Q How did that come about?
A Well, I told Mrs. Lowe I had talked to
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432
the man, and I told her the
man said he needed $20,000 and there was a "squamble
and quamble"
about the price.
Q Was a price ever agreed upon?
A Yes, sir, there was a price of $5,000
agreed upon.
Q Did you ever actually talk to a man?
A No, sir, I did not.
Q Where did the price of $5,000 come from?
A It was just a figure out of my head,
because I was trying to win Mrs. Lowe’s affections for me and the way she
talked, her sister was almost broke.
Q The way she talked?
A Yes, sir.
Q Did you know her sister at the time?
A No, sir, I did not.
Q Well, was any agreement made about the
price?
A Yes, sir, there was.
Q What was that agreement?
A I told them I had talked to a man and he
said he had to have half the money up front.
Q What -- you are talking now to Mrs. Lowe;
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433
is that right?
A Yes, sir.